[ve-l] COLREGS
Whiteley, John F
whiteley at marshall.edu
Wed Mar 26 09:37:10 EDT 2008
If Rod Barnes is carrying CG-169, he is really out of date! :-) Since the mid-1970's the old CG-169 has been in the COMDTINST series of instructions (COMDTINST M16672.series). IMHO, as a former USCG Marine Inspector and Senior Investigating Officer, it's the words that count, not who printed them. If a publication has all the rules as printed in 33 CFR (for Inland waters) and the IMO Convention (for International waters) you should be all right. (Of course, they must be kept up to date.) For example, my copy of COMDTINST M16672.2D was actually printed by Lighthouse Press, a division of ProStar Publishers, not the Government Printing Office. However, a disclaimer inside the front cover states that it satisfies all Coast Guard requirements of 33 CFR 164.33 (Charts and Publications).
Captain John F. Whiteley, MS
Director, Inland Waterways Academy
Marshall Community and Technical College
304-697-5616 (office)
304-697-5611 (Fax)
304-417-3321 (Huntington Cell)
304-437-3321 (Cell)
whiteley at marshall.edu
________________________________________
From: ve-l-bounces at usps.org [ve-l-bounces at usps.org] On Behalf Of ve-l-request at usps.org [ve-l-request at usps.org]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 4:51 PM
To: Whiteley, John F
Subject: ve-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
(Robert Miller)
2. David sent you a friend request on Tagged :) (David Howard)
3. email (Colleen Anderson)
4. jetskies (ROBERT HARRISON)
5. Re: jetskies (Dave Donkers)
6. Re: jetskies (ron)
7. Re: Visual Distress Signals (Dave Donkers)
8. Re: ve-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1 (Rod Barnes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:13:31 -0700
From: "Robert Miller" <boatsafe at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ve-l] USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
To: "'Dave Donkers'" <donkers at aps.anl.gov>
Cc: 'Vessel Examiners Discussion Group' <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <004101c88b76$e3568880$6500a8c0 at epoxkitchen>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dave,
The question is being researched by Pete Urgola who is the VSC Liaison with
the Coast Guard. He expects to have an answer next week. Stay tuned.
Cheers,
R/C Bob Miller
USPS VSC Com Chair
-----Original Message-----
From: ve-l-bounces at usps.org [mailto:ve-l-bounces at usps.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Donkers
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:12 AM
To: boatsafe at comcast.net
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [ve-l] USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
Greetings again --
Thanks to all who gave comments. I decided to wait a
bit on my replies to let the comments come in.
Some of the things I've checked out, and a few replies...
DOT (Department of Transportation) may work with USCG,
but USCG is under Department of Homeland Security.
Different Departments - there are no "USDOT USCG
requirements".
Where can we find out what USCG trains its officers to
accept as a "copy of the Inland Navigation Rules"?
I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment
and ask what rule/law/whatever defines this? Doesn't
USPS have at least an informal working relationship
with the USCG, with contacts we can talk to get
clarification on issues like this?
My name is Dave, but I'll pass along to Don when I
meet him that I'm new as SEO, and I did find this book
as a part of the S course material. If this is
something I should have known in the 10 years before
I became SEO, then I'm guilty.
In a careful rereading of the introduction, Wing states
"By law, all vessels of twenty meters or more in length
that operate in U.S. Inland Waters are required to carry
an up-to-date copy of the Rules. ... This book ...
satisfies this requirement." Yes, and vessels twelve
meters or more in length need to carry it, too.
The biggest difference I can see is that this book's
presentation of the Rules doesn't look like Paradise
Cay's printing of the 'official' GPO printing of the
rules. The GPO Rules also have to be updated,
something you don't have to do right now with this book
or the Paradise Cay book. For that matter, what makes
Paradise Cay's publication "official"? I'm not
criticizing what they do, but what makes a publication OK?
I've been trying to contact anyone at USCG MSO Chicago
without any results so far. What I think we need to know
is 1) Is this (or any non-GPO printing of the Rules)
'legitimate'? 2) What makes it so? 3) Where does it
say so? 4) If it is OK, how do we make sure that those
who carry it won't get ticketed? I agree that a change
in the requirements is not appropriate - I just want
to know the rules of the game (so to speak). 8^)
In my (sometimes not-so-humble) opinion, we as boaters
are better off with a copy of the Rules that gets used
(read this as READ) rather than one that gets abandoned
or set aside because it can be difficult to use. I'm
dedicated and curious enough to want to know things, and
have read the Rules and dug into CFR and USC to find out
arcana, but I don't expect the average J. Boater to be
that way.
The VSC program is supposed to be educational as an
adjunct to the safety aspects. If we can do both
(and maybe help YOUR squadron make a few bucks), aren't
we ahead of the game?
Let's see what we can find out.
Dave Donkers, SN
General Factotum
Unofficial Gadfly
Dedicated Logician
Inveterate Free-Thinker
ve-l
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:39:07 -0400
From: David Howard <dhoward61 at msn.com>
Subject: [ve-l] David sent you a friend request on Tagged :)
To: ve-l at usps.org
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Colleen Anderson <canderson289 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [ve-l] email
To: ve-l at usps.org
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <648570.41757.qm at web44813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: ROBERT HARRISON <seapony3585 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [ve-l] jetskies
To: ve-l at usps.org
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <5209.58484.qm at web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does the state of Illinois require a jetski to carry a safety flare?
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:05:25 -0500
From: Dave Donkers <donkers at aps.anl.gov>
Subject: Re: [ve-l] jetskies
To: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <47E7FB75.2060708 at aps.anl.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Robert --
According to the current Illinois handout and the
Boat Illinois material, they are not required if
the boat is less than 16 feet in length.
On Lake Michigan, they must have "visual distress
signals as required and approved by the U,S. Coast
Guard" - COLREGS has waving arms listed as a VDS.
Basically - required, no. On Lake Michigan - there
have been PWC operators break down or run out of
gas miles offshore and spend days before rescue.
If they have room. I'd strongly recommend them.
Dave Donkers
DuPage
ROBERT HARRISON wrote:
> Does the state of Illinois require a jetski to carry a safety flare?
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ve-l mailing list
> ve-l at usps.org
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:40:14 -0400
From: "ron" <rlaplante at wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: [ve-l] jetskies
To: "ROBERT HARRISON" <seapony3585 at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <003d01c88de6$e1a17af0$74210e45 at mary>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Robert,
I would recommend that you research the Illinois DNR for the answer to your question.
You must be careful to know the local requirements, when doing Vessel Safety Checks
out of your area or on vessels that are used in waters of another State.
Good Luck
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: ROBERT HARRISON
To: rlaplante at wideopenwest.com
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: [ve-l] jetskies
Does the state of Illinois require a jetski to carry a safety flare?
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:23:27 -0500
From: Dave Donkers <donkers at aps.anl.gov>
Subject: Re: [ve-l] Visual Distress Signals
To: "'Vessel Examiners Discussion Group'" <ve-l at usps.org>
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <47E80DBF.3000309 at aps.anl.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Kevin --
The question was do Illinois regs require PWCs to
carry flares - To quote Illinois Combined Statues
625 ILCS 45 Boat Registration and Safety Act,
"Sec. 4-12. Visual distress signals. It is unlawful
to operate any watercraft on the waters of Lake Michigan
without having onboard visual distress signals as
required and approved by the U.S. Coast Guard, so placed
as to be readily accessible and in such condition as to
be ready for immediate and effective use."
The relevant part of that is "as _required_ and approved
by the U.S. Coast Guard".
If they are not on Lake Michigan, they are not required
and it goes on the right side of the form under
"Inland VDS".
Otherwise, it goes back to the length of the boat, and
VDSs are not required under 16 feet. If a PWC is
16' or over, then they are required.
As I said before, PWCs on Loch Mich without VDSs are
just looking for trouble, but it is their choice.
Dave Donkers
DuPage (Western suburbs of Chicago)
VSC Chair
KevinR wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ve-l-bounces at usps.org On Behalf Of Dave Donkers
>>
>> On Lake Michigan, they must have "visual distress
>> signals as required and approved by the U,S. Coast
>> Guard" - COLREGS has waving arms listed as a VDS.
>
> Waving arms, firing a gun every minute, showing an open flame, continuous
> sounding of a fog horn, activation of an EPIRB or sending the radio
> telegraph alarm signal are all recognized signals for distress, but they are
> all most definitely NOT Visual Distress Signals.
>
> When a VE is checking for VDS during a VSC, only the signals listed in the
> VE manual are acceptable.
>
> Kevin Redden
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:11:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "Rod Barnes" <7seas at whidbey.net>
Subject: Re: [ve-l] ve-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1
To: <rdaybell at earthlink.net>
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
Message-ID: <47E18F8D.000018.03092 at 7SEAS>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
That makes the Wing Book a reference, but perhaps not the Authority to
replace CG-169 Colregs.
-------Original Message-------
From: rdaybell at earthlink.net
Date: 19-Mar-08 14:58:27
To: 7seas at whidbey.net
Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [ve-l] ve-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1
The Wing book on rules of the road is the one now used in the USPS
Seamanship Class.
-----Original Message-----
>From: ve-l-request at usps.org
>Sent: Mar 19, 2008 11:43 AM
>To: RDAYBELL at earthlink.net
>Subject: ve-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1
>
>Send ve-l mailing list submissions to
> ve-l at usps.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.usps.org/mailman/listinfo/ve-l
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ve-l-request at usps.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> ve-l-owner at usps.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ve-l digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. New West Marine Discount Coupons Available (Robert Miller)
> 2. VSC Errors (Robert Miller)
> 3. Coast Guard to Emphasize Life Jacket Wear (Robert Miller)
> 4. USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement? (Dave Donkers)
> 5. Re: USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
> (ShaunMcA at aol.com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:15:21 -0800
>From: "Robert Miller" <boatsafe at comcast.net>
>Subject: [ve-l] New West Marine Discount Coupons Available
>To: "ve-1" <ve-l at usps.org>
>Cc: 'Ron LaPlante R/C' <rlaplante at wideopenwest.com>, "'Harold J.
> Morris - D25'" <haltoyone at frontiernet.net>, 'Harold Oslick - D/Lt/C'
> <HOslick at aol.com>, afwkxtn at juno.com, "'Luis A. Ojeda- R/C'"
> <tesco at coqui.net>, Shirley Van Rhee <solitude at goldcommcable.com>, "Ron
> D. Werner - D28" <Ronald.Werner at gd-ais.com>, 'Bob Palmer SN'
> <r2pmhp at mindspring.com>, Tish Cullen - D13 <lvtishp at aol.com>, 'Bob
> Miller - Stf/C' <boatsafe at comcast.net>, Tom Roscoe
> <Trawler34 at verizon.net>, Joe Leitz <joeleitz at bellsouth.net>, 'Everett
> W Stebbins - P/D/C' <esteb22760 at aol.com>, Shamus O'Fraherty - D-32
> <shamus1941 at msn.com>, John Robinson <j_rr7 at yahoo.com>, Dan Joyce -
> <danjoyce at prodigy.net>, Vessel Examiners Discussion Group
> <ve-l at usps.org>
>Message-ID: <001101c859f5$b6338b30$6500a8c0 at epoxkitchen>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>All VEs,
>
>
>
>The West Marine has authorized VSC Discount Program again for 2008. The
>coupons are available for download and printing from the VSC home page
>http://www.usps.org/national/vsc/. They should be printed two sided if at
>all possible and can be black and white but the barcode must be visible to
>be accepted.
>
>
>
>Vessel Safety Checks Save Lives,
>
>
>
>Bob Miller
>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:10:16 -0800
>From: "Robert Miller" <boatsafe at comcast.net>
>Subject: [ve-l] VSC Errors
>To: "ve-1" <ve-l at usps.org>
>Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
>Message-ID: <003001c86cd9$5b2f51f0$6500a8c0 at epoxkitchen>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ahoy VEs,
>
>
>
>We now have 2008 status on the VSC web site. We also have our first month
of
>ERROR reports. There are a few duplicates showing up so far but we have an
>inordinate number of reports for NON-QUALIFIED examiners. In fact a full
>11+% of all VSCs reported to date are for non-qualified examiners. Please
>check the reports online to get these corrected. Thanks from your National
>VSC Committee.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>Stf/C Bob Miller
>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:15:30 -0800
>From: "Robert Miller" <boatsafe at comcast.net>
>Subject: [ve-l] Coast Guard to Emphasize Life Jacket Wear
>To: "ve-1" <ve-l at usps.org>
>Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
>Message-ID: <005801c8796c$bce80410$6500a8c0 at epoxkitchen>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Coast Guard to Emphasize Life Jacket Wear February 27 2008
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>A key outcome of the Coast Guard's Recreational Boating Safety program is
to
>reduce loss of life on the water. A major component of that program is to
>convince boaters to wear their life jackets while on the water. Various
>media campaigns have been utilized in the past without a major shift in the
>desired outcome.
>
>
>
>A Vessel Safety Check (VSC) provides the vessel examiner an opportunity to
>educate the boater on the value and importance of life jacket wear. During
>the VSC, the criteria for selecting, sizing, and inspection of life jackets
>is reviewed and demonstrated to the boater.
>
>
>
>Public education courses are another venue to demonstrate the variety of
>life jackets available. Of paramount interest is the inflatable life jacket
>which offers the boater a comfortable and reliable life saving option.
>
>
>
>Public affairs activities, such as safety exhibits at boat shows, provide
>another venue to illustrate to the public the variety of life jackets
>available in the market place.
>
>
>
>The Coast Guard's Office of Auxiliary and Boating Safety firmly believes
>that our vessel examiners, public educators and public affairs
>representatives should be role models for life jacket wear and are
>encouraging them to wear their life jackets during vessel safety checks,
>public education classes, and public affair events. As an incentive for
>demonstrating the "right behavior" on and around the water, inflatable life
>jackets branded with the "Wear It" logo will be made available (on a loner
>basis) to each Flotilla and Squadron.
>
>
>
>Inflatable life jackets will be distributed to local units which will be
>responsible for the custody, maintenance, and utilization of this equipment
>and annual reporting of the local inventory through respective chain of
>command to the Office of Auxiliary and Boating Safety, Program Operations
>Branch (CG-54222). The expectation is that they will be leveraged to
provide
>the maximum possible exposure to support the wearing of life jackets.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Peter Urgola,
>
>
>USCG Auxiliary
>
>
>Chief, Vessel Examination Dept.
>
>
>
>Bob Miller
>
>US Power Squadrons
>
>Chairman, VSC Committee
>
>
>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:25:37 -0500
>From: Dave Donkers <donkers at aps.anl.gov>
>Subject: [ve-l] USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
>To: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
>Cc: Vessel Examiners Discussion Group <ve-l at usps.org>
>Message-ID: <47E10641.6080702 at aps.anl.gov>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Greetings --
>
>OK - this is a bit long, but bear with me.....
>
>I have just come across the USPS Guide, "The One-Minute
>Guide to the Nautical Rules of the Road", by Charlie Wing,
>published by McGraw-Hill and available through USPS.
>
>I have found it to be an excellent guide to the rules,
>written in plain language and giving clear descriptions
>of what the rules mean to recreational boaters. It's an
>"easy read" - you can pick it up and start anywhere and
>get something useful out of it.
>
>It has a section that has the Rules in full (with some
>explanatory material added). No, I haven't proofed it to
>check that it's accurate word-for-word.
>
>The reason I'm writing this is not as a book review, but
>because the book states on the cover that it "Satisfies
>Coast Guard requirements for carrying the rules on board".
>
>33CFR88.05 states "The operator of each self-propelled
>vessel 12 meters or more in length shall carry on board
>and maintain for ready reference a copy of the Inland
>Navigation Rules." Hmmmm... No mention of having to carry
>the International Rules, but I'm sure that's in there
>somewhere. 8^)
>
>As Vessel Examiners can we accept this book instead of the
>traditional red/white/blue bound COMDINST M16672xxxx?
>
>Almost more importantly, if we pass a vessel that is only
>carries this book and they get inspected by the USCG, will
>the USCG accept it? I don't want to put a boater in a
>position where they might get a ticket for something we
>accept - they've got our name and phone number on the form.
>
>I know the argument that "If you've got the money for a boat
>XX feet long, spend the money for a 'regulation' copy...".
>Let's face it, money is tight, and I'd rather suggest a copy
>of the rules that gets used that having one that sits in a
>locker getting moldy.
>
>By the way, the book lists for $18.95 on the McGraw-Hill
>website, but your SEO can order them for $13.50. If they're
>acceptable, sell them for 15 or 16 bucks and let your
>squadron make some money.
>
>Any advice, approvals, comments etc.?
>
>Dave Donkers
>VSC Chair
>Education Officer
>DuPage Power Squadron
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:42:56 EDT
>From: ShaunMcA at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [ve-l] USPS Guide OK for COLREGS carriage requirement?
>To: donkers at aps.anl.gov
>Cc: ve-l at usps.org
>Message-ID: <c25.301fb036.3512b8b0 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Dave,
>
>Since the USCG does the boarding and is the ultimate arbiter, I suggest
>asking them.
>
>P/C Shaun McArdle, AP
>Vessel Examiner
>SAN DIEGO SAIL& POWER SQUADRON
>
>
>
>**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
>Home.
>(http://home.aol
com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
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